F200 Rules and questions

[harrisracing]

Greetings,

With the growing excitement of people actually being able to make laps at this track very soon, I'm curious where we stand on adopting the rules for the F200 class. I have a few questions as follows:

1) Regarding Chassis: What are the specific rules / requirements?

2) Regarding Safety: What gear (specifically) will be required to run?

3) Regarding F200 spec: Is this going to be a direct interpretation of Burris rules on engines? Meaning is the "clone" engine blackballed from competition or are we letting it slide?

4) Also is the Tilly carb a "requirement"?

5) Is there any way we could have an acceptable agreed-upon smaller carb that will actually idle? My kids drive this kart as well and I'd hate to have it kill on them out on track. Would a Mikuni 22mm be an acceptable substitute?

I ask these questions for 2 reasons:
1) To save money in efforts to promote the class. I personally know and run with 15+ guys that could come run with us in this class and most of them run a clone motor and a more "simple" carb. To exclude them all out the gate seems counter-productive.
2) To save PITA factor on the "spec" tilly carb - I can front the money to buy another Honda motor and swap parts, but not idling is just unacceptable - Everyone I talked to said this is the case with the Tilly.


Thank You,
Patrick Harris

[harrisracing]

http://www.eccarburetors.com/pdf/Tuning-Info.pdf

In order to backup my "Tillotson carbs are a PITA on F200 engines" argument.


Now that your carb is all set, it is time to test. You plug your starter on and hit the go button or give a yank on the pull rope. The engine spins over and the fuel heads for the carburetor as it disappears under the fuel cap and the engine comes to life. You pull the starter out, and hit the throttle a couple of times, then one more time for good measure to make sure it will tack up. As your engine thumps away and fills the garage with smoke you notice raw fuel is dripping out of the carburetor mouth to the floor. You ground out the sparkplug and kill the engine as quickly as possible. Raw fuel is still dripping out of the carburetor and you can see it's coming from the high side discharge port. You think, “Where did I go wrong? I know I put all the parts back in. Something must be wrong.“
No nothing is wrong with your carburetor this is normal. With a Tillotson carburetor, we install the carburetor up side down from the way it was designed to be mounted. The pump plates are up on the top and not on the bottom. The low and high side needles are open and all of the fuel that is in the wet side of the carburetor is just draining out past the tips of the needles and out the discharge ports. It will keep dripping till all this fuel is gone from the wet side of the carburetor and only takes a bit of time to do.
Since you don't have three hands, two to hold onto the starter with and one to work the throttle with you set the idle screw so the engine could get some air through the carburetor to start. Next, take your screwdriver and back this idle screw off till it doesn't touch your idle stop tab on the throttle shaft. Now screw it in just enough to touch the tab and just a tiny touch more so the shutter in the carburetor is closed but not slamming into the throttle bore. You want the shutter to be completely closed where no air can come by it in the closed position for racing. At least not enough so the engine will idle. No idle? That's right. No matter the engine, you don't want this idle screw set where the engine will idle no mater what the carburetor is. Here's why.

How does "fuel pours out of the intake being normal" even pass safety tech?

[Mitch Wright]

1) Chassis rules are are Burris National Speedway Rules for F200/Super Sportsman, chassis rules are the same as IKF and WKA 4/ and sportsman classes.
2) 2005 M or SA rated helmet, If purchasing a new helmet make sure you get a 2010M or SA, Gloves, Karting gloves or Motorcycle gloves are recommended, a karting suit or jacket, if using a jacket heavy pants (like blue jeans) required, high top shoes.
3) The reason the clone engines are not included is lack of consistency. If you go with a Honda GX 200 to build your F200 you will have a much better engine IMHO. We have not discussed deviating F200 rules for the 4/ engines. I will discuss with Garett.
4) Yes the carb is required for f200 engine running Super Sportsman.
5) See 4

1) For our Super Sportsman class 4 cycle engines are teched using Burris F200 rules. If we get a group of racers running Modified Clones we will find a place for them to race with us.
2) Tilloston Racing Carbs don't have a idle circuit, with a minor modification the carb will idle.

Your carb should not be dripping fuel, if might spit a little fuel at low RPM due to the over lap of the cam. With out looking at your carb it is tough to diagnose the problem, I would be more than happy to take a look at it for you. I personally believe the Tilloston is a great Racing carb offering high performance, easy to tune and maintain.
Let us know if we can assist you.

[harrisracing]

Thanks for the quick reply...especially about the Tillotson carb and other basic rules.

I was given the Tillotson carb by a friend who bought a "blueprinted" one brand new and gave up on it completely after trying on two different karts on account of these same problems I posted. I thought he was crazy so I Google'd how to tune them and this was the FIRST article I read indicating the exact problems he told me. BUT, I will halt on that decision until I at least try it out on my own kart per your instructions.

I am very happy to hear you guys talking about allowing the clones to run. Regarding your comments I do have one more question: If the Honda is better, what is the problem with a clone that passes the same tech? I mean we aren't talking stock-for-stock parts, we are comparing race prepped, ported, billet internal'd motors in the F200 class. If the same parts fit in both motors and tech rules are made for those, what is the major issue?

Regarding the Clone - Honda conversion
This conversion is ~$400 if you have all the parts already in an existing clone that can be used. If I must take apart a perfectly running F200 clone and spend $400 to build a Honda I am stuck with the following decision:

Spend $400 and a day to unbuild clone/rebuild Honda to "legalize" my F200 kart, or Use this $400 towards racing my open class shifter and just have fun "lapping" with the Clone "almost" F200

BUT, it would be even more fun to me to run a class where there are "open" 200cc 4 strokes allowed to run. It would be an incredibly creative class.

I don't want to create a bitter start here or to sound like I'm complaining, but I really just wanted to bring up these points BEFORE the rules were locked in. These are simply my real-world suggestions that in my opinion would help you grow your track participation. BUT, I do, however understand getting track participation up is NOT my responsibility nor my job, so I will respect your decisions.

Thanks again,
Patrick

[Fast Guys]

FWIW: You will have a lot larger field if you include the Gx200 Clone. I'm building mine to F200 spec. It will pass tech and I'm hoping to be able to race it in F200. Please allow the clone casting.

[Matthew Patterson]

As a competitor who will be running a KT100, I certainly don't mind allowing the clones in the class for points.

If they prove faster than me, isn't there going to be a gun range on site? We can just use the karts for target practice! hahaha

[Fast55]

As a competitor who will be running a KT100, I certainly don't mind allowing the clones in the class for points.

If they prove faster than me, isn't there going to be a gun range on site? We can just use the karts for target practice! hahaha

Spoken like a true ring-dinger, my bug-abatement brother!

[Fast Guys]

New question about the Burris Rules. The cylinder head rule states:

Original factory casting only. Two valves maximum and must maintain
original location, (angles are 90º from deck with listed spacing). Carb inlet and exhaust
outlet in the head have to be in their stock intended locations. Porting and grinding
permitted. No external addition of metal to enhance performance allowed. Spark plug
to be 14mm X .75 reach only and original stock location maintained. Minimum
combustion chamber volume when mounted on engine @ TDC is 24 cc's using
prescribed procedure as noted in rule 8.5. This is to be done after the event and when
the engine has cooled down to a reasonable temperature. (Note – Briggs W/F head is
legal but must use a 14mm spark plug)

Does the 18cc gx160 head fall under the category "Original Factory Casting"? Can factory heads be milled to reach the 24cc rule? Thanks in advance for the replies.

[Mitch Wright]

Yes it does, with the Honda GX 160 and GX 200 valve spacing and port layout is the same.

[Mitch Wright]

Mike Burris and I have discussed the F200 rules and clones sometime ago when I first got involved with F200. Below is Mikes statement 2 years ago on why clones are not one of the engines allowed for the class. I happen to agree with Mike on this, for those with clones we will have a place for you to race.

http://karting.4cycle.com/showthread.php?p=2083042#post2083042

John, read this link and it pretty much sums up our position on allowing Clones in to the F200 class. Since that was posted there have been several more Clone engines enter the mix so your statement about opening the rules up to allow a generic group of almost 10 engines with no hard specs or controls that their manufacturers adhere to is not even practical. F200 has 5 distinct brands of which 3 are still active in the market. Honda did the R&D and supported the engine for the last 20 years so I don’t see where a copy or cheap facsimile of the GX is doing the class any good or will help it grow. BTW, several people have done study’s on building clones and GX200’s into F200 configuration and the final tab between the two is so close (about 10%) that the Honda gets the nod on quality and reliability and has the name to go with it.
Your statement about changing the rules to accommodate Briggs’s 206cc engine is amusing in that you relate that to NASCAR type racing but ALL those manufacturers have built engines to comply with the rules not the other way around like you’d like to see. Briggs has the resources AND a Motorsports division so you’d think they’d play the game by the rules if they were interested but IMO that’s just a smoke screen because of the nature of the class that means engines have to rev to over 8,000 on a regular basis to be competitive. No rev limiters here!! (FYI, a group of Briggs racers in the CES changed the rules to allow 206 engines and the class has failed to grow in spite of the change)
Anyhow, the people running F200 are satisfied and nothing is going to change for now and we’ll continue to have fun with our 10 year old rules.

Mike



First of all what is a “clone”. To me it was a certain engine that was a copy of the GX200 and has long since been lost in the shuffle. Mike in reference to your question about clones in the F200 class the answer is no. You are dealing with two different ends of the engine spectrum here. The clones (which are generically a group of engines) are serving the low cost “box stock” end of the market and the F200 (specific engines) the upper end (price, quality and power) so trying to bring the two together wouldn’t be a good match IMO. When you consider that most of the cost of an F200 is in the upgrades of rods, pistons, cams, valves, etc and the labor and machine work that goes along with it saving a hundred or so dollars on the cost of a clone versus a GX200 (with its better quality and materials) is not the right approach. Hopping up a clone for the sake of some extra hp is definitely cost effective but not the full 18+ hp F200 route. The other problem from a rules standpoint is that clones are a group of engines that to a degree copy the GX200 but there are many variations and there are no reasons for the factories producing these engines to make them to a specific spec for future use. F200 rules deal with specific engines (not groups) so this makes life a lot easier for us and the racers so we don’t get companies that make the clones make something like a new head that could upset the balance.
Bottom line is the clones are doing a good job of filling the needs of those on limited budgets and the F200’s the needs of the go fast tinkerers.
One thing I’d like to mention is that despite the comments of some of the virtual armchair racers on this forum who say F200 is dead or outrageously expensive is that nothing could be further from the truth. Just because they don’t have an active F200 class going in your neighborhood doesn’t mean its dead and just because someone advertises a stupid price doesn't mean it is worth it! Last season F200 grew to be a factor in several regions of the country (and Canada) and has more growth coming in the future. One of the programs that was especially gratifying was the one that Kevin Harvick and some of his NASCAR buddies came on board with. What began as an open engine RWYB open tire deal has ended using exclusively the YF200 Yamaha and our Burris B55A tires to race on! They started out with a hand full of racers and now have over 25 and counting! We are very proud and excited to be chosen as the supplier of engines and tires and we feel this validates our products and the quality and value that we strive to give the sport of karting.

http://karting.4cycle.com/showthread.php?p=2083042#post2083042

[harrisracing]

Mitch, I appreciate the quick response and the consideration. I will respect your decision and move on without further argument.

I would like to make the motion of having a clone of the GX200 class that is following Burris Rules for GX200 with the following additions:
* allow any carb up to .790" venturi (meaning Tillotson is allowed)
* allow any manifold length
* open rocker arms and camshafts but max .275" lift at the valve retainer (this will allow stock motors to run larger rockers and get to the lift if they so desire).

Reason for this is it will allow most people to switch most of their parts to the Honda motor as they come available and that performance should be at least similar to F200.

Thank You,
Patrick Harris

[Fast Guys]

That's what I will be doing. We will run the clones in F200 spec and I'll convert it to an OEM Honda as one becomes available.